The latest dispatch from climate commentator Mike Berners-Lee – Climate Politics and Why Honesty Matters – covers the current position on the climate crisis, why action is not taking place, and brings to light the importance of trust and candour in politicians when it comes to providing information on climate change.
At a recent event at Brewery Arts in Kendal in support of local charity Carers Support, Mike shared his thoughts on what it is that each of us can do to create the political, social, and environmental conditions for the planet and humanity to both survive and thrive.
Following his talk, he had an inspiring conversation with 21-year-old climate campaigner and founder of environment education charity Another Way, Amy Bray, around several key climate issues and concerns addressing how we can all get involved and make easy changes
Mike and Amy in conversation
Mike: Amy, let’s hear from you a little bit more about what you’re doing. So we know that some young people have done some fantastic things and are really saying what are the ways that I could push for this sort of future that I want to see? And I think Amy is a great example of it. So tell everyone what you get up to.
Amy: I am a 21-year-old climate campaigner, with a degree in marine biology and I am also the founder of environmental education charity Another Way, which I set up when I was 16 when I was still at school in Carlisle because of being very frightened about my future.
As an aspiring biologist, I was learning from an incredibly young age about what was happening to our oceans and the natural world that I love so much. So, for me, activism came very naturally.
When we feel anger, despair, fear, or grief, then it is up to us to choose what we do about that. And for me, it was action in whatever circle of influence I had. To start with that was at home changing my lifestyle and it was at school as well.
So, I started my journey by making my school plastic free by running a plastic free shop at break time and by giving school assemblies and eventually, that grew in popularity and I was missing two days of school a week for our A levels to go into other schools and educate them about something that is not on the school curriculum even today.
In 2019, I decided to register Another Way as a charity. We aim to empower individuals to live more sustainably and to take collective action for the planet in whatever way resonates for us. We are about finding hopeful and positive solutions to something that can be very overwhelming and scary.
We help people to break down that massive circle of what can we do into very tangible actions that we can take at home with our families by having conversations and through activism as well. And over the last couple of years, through my work in school and the media, I have seen a lot of young people feel very isolated and very powerless and, and very scared. So, now, I am focusing on a project called Power of Ten which is helping support young people become resilient changemakers.
Mike: Yeah, so it is a ton of stuff, and some people say, oh, well, you know, it is such a big global problem, and I am just one person. There is nothing I can do, nothing I can do can be meaningful. What is your response to that?
Amy: Yeah, we all hold enormous power as individuals. And Another Way’s motto is if one person were to tell ten people about a message in one day and the next day those ten people each told ten more and so on, it would only take just ten days for the entire world to have been inspired. So, no one is ever too small and insignificant because we can make a huge change in our own lives. And when we have huge influence as active citizens to talk to our family and friends and those we love, but also those at work, we can vote, we can tell our MP and, and we have seen examples of how that has made change already. We have been doing some research for my charity to make a guide and there are so many examples of magnificent work going on out there for example, Morrison’s stopped using plastic bags because of people refusing them or taking plastic packaging back to the supermarket.
And we have seen massive political changes even in the five years that I have been campaigning. 30,000 people marched on the streets of COP 26 in Glasgow and when I set up the first youth-led climate march in London, back in 2016, only 40 people turned up. So, in the space of a few years, the movement has grown massively. And that was thanks to individuals. So, yes, you can do a huge amount at every level.
Mike: And what about the psychology of it? Because, you know, lots of people find it difficult to be involved in this whole agenda of thinking about the stuff that is going on. And how do you manage the psychology of it?
Amy: Yeah, it is tricky and, even hearing all your facts today, I know them so well already, but they still get to me, and they still hurt, and I feel a huge amount of grief. 70 per cent of young people in the world face eco-anxiety. And we know that there are huge barriers to behavioural change as well.
Things like, ‘it’s too inconvenient,’ but also thoughts like ‘my actions won’t make a difference’ or ‘no one else around me is doing it, so why should I?’ or ‘it’s just too big a problem’ and ‘it’s too late.’
So, it is important for us to do some inner work on ourselves. That is often the missing key. Because yes, we can make a dramatic difference to the world around us, but we must take care of ourselves otherwise we will burn out.
My activism put me in a wheelchair for seven months because my nervous system shut down. And I am not alone, there are several stories like that. So, taking care of ourselves is so important and I think finding our own joy in our climate activism.
I like this concept called ikigai, which is a Japanese word, and it means life purpose. If you imagine a Venn diagram and the intersect between what you are good at and love doing, what the world needs and what you can be paid for as well is your ikigai. For me finding things that give me energy and joy prevent me from burning out.
I was going to ask you, Mike how you deal with keeping informed and up to date with the media.
Because obviously as, as scientists, as activists, we need to stay informed, we need to know what is going on. But at times I just want to bury my head in the sand, and I do not want to stay up to date because it makes me feel so upset. So how, how do you suggest people deal with that?
Mike: Yeah, I do not think it works to just always be drilling into today’s latest updates on it and the good news about it is that for all the kind of grisly detail that is coming at us the whole time it does not require day to day monitoring. It is about understanding the broad perspective of it all. And you can’t swim around with this stuff the whole time. It doesn’t work to do that because there is no point saving a world that is no fun to live in. What I sometimes say, you must somehow find a way of doing it in a way that keeps you buoyed up. On a good day it is particularly good for the morale to feel as though you are doing something which is in some kind of way, a contribution. I mean, we are always asking the question is, is it still meaningful what we are doing now? Given, given what is going on? That is always challenging.
If you are pushing something to the back of your mind and pretending it isn’t there and carry on as normal that will psychologically weigh you down and life just really eats at you. Whereas if you face it and you look at it properly and then you get moving on something, that feels much better. My sense of it is I keep talking about when is humanity going to wake up on mass? I think when we do, I think we will feel brilliant about it because although, when we change that, I just think we life will just feel so much fresher.
Amy: Yeah, absolutely. I think when we feel empowered and that we are making a difference as part of a community as well. Community is so important. If we feel like we are acting alone, then we are just going to be constantly in our own bubble of despair. But, finding actions that we can take personally and collectively can really motivate us to change. That is something that that Another Way is doing through providing a toolkit for young people to help them turn their anxiety into agency and action. And that is something that is being picked up by the whole climate movement much more than four years ago, talking about resilience, burnout, and fear. And then there is the other side of it. There are the people who are who don’t feel any of those emotions and I almost feel sorry for them, not feeling the love and that grief of that we are losing because they are so disconnected from earth and nature.
Mike: I, every now and again, do a talk or attend something in some environment, you know, some business environment that is just completely in the wrong place. And the one that strikes me the most. I was on a panel of a Shell conference a few years ago and it was very, very striking. I came away from it thinking if I do not say it like it is, I am going to really hate myself, but I came away from it feeling like the whole room just felt ill. You know, everyone was laughing and smiling and all the rest of it, but it just really felt ill.
So, yeah, I loved your phrase Ikigai, and that is something which I think, I was talking about earlier. You push for change in the way that you can and it is different for everybody, but it is exactly that question.
Amy: I remember I went to a talk of yours and you introduced this concept of global compassion and it really resonated with me and, and in your book, there is No Planet B you talk about how we should feel, if there was a sweatshop in Bangladesh, we should feel as if there was a sweatshop in our village in our community. I don’t think compassion is a term that is talked about enough in the climate movement or by scientists. So how would you say that we as individuals can practice that global compassion? And, and do you think that the whole movement needs to be talking more about values?
Mike: Yes, the whole movement needs to be talking more about values. I think when Extinction Rebellion were at their absolute best, I think one of the things they got right was when they talked about respecting everybody, you know, the police, the fossil fuel chief executives, the public.
Universal respect I thought was a key thing. And they also called for absolute truth and they of course called for respect for the environment. Those were key things they really got right. So how can we develop compassion? I just think I have identified it as something that we need to get better at.
We have globalized, right? Humanity has globalized like it or not. And so, our impacts are global, and we must learn to have an emotional reaction to when we hear about things happening on the other side of the world. But the good news is, and there’s evidence from neuroscience and history and all sorts of places, is that humans are capable. Our values are not just something we have got and that is what we are stuck with. We can develop the values that we need to have to thrive. And I think it is clear cut that we need to have that universal respect and compassion. We need to get better at it.
We are capable of having much higher standards of truthfulness and insisting on it, noticing on it, and having that culturally pervasive and we must have it and we are capable of engineering it. The fact that things have gone backwards over the last few years on that camp is almost good news because in the sense that it shows it is a variable, it shows that we can go the wrong way. It shows it must be possible to go to the right, isn’t it?
Amy: And nurturing compassion is a key to fixing the polycrisis in general. We can fix so many issues whether it’s inequality or poverty or the health crisis or climate change with compassion. And yet we still just talk about technology like it is the only fix. But for me that is a short-term fix for a very deep crisis.
Mike: So specifically on technology, if we hadn’t had any technology, we wouldn’t be in an extremely dangerous situation now. I am not anti-technology and we do need some technologies like crazy to help us get through this, but it is not by default, something that helps us, it will only help us if we can select the good ones and deploy them in safe ways and leave the bad ones on the shelf. And alongside that, we also need all these other things about values and some simple things like a fossil fuel constraint and, and stuff like that. And just by the way, just on this compassion thing, you know, one of the things is about communities we’re in and the extent to which people get to care for their families and neighbours and the extent to which their carers also get the support they need in order to be able to do their jobs and have quality of life, which is what this whole event was originally is here for.
Amy: I think another thing that has really helped me is imagining what a future could look like. And you had some great photos on a slide of what life could look like if we do get it right? And if we do fix all these problems at once.
Has, has anyone watched Chicken Run here? Yes. Ok. So, in Chicken Run, the chickens want to escape this farm that they are in because they are all going to be sent to slaughter. And they could be motivated to escape by that fear.
But every night, Ginger the chicken goes and sits on the roof of the hen house and he looks at these green fields really far away and imagines his future in them.
Every night he needs to be motivated by this joy and love of what he wants his future to be. So I say to people, if we’re constantly just running away from what we hate and what we fear, then that’s never going to make us resilient and it’s never going to help us imagine what we could create. This is the biggest opportunity we’ve ever had to create a new future; a completely transformative society.
Mike: In some ways, you are completely right, in some ways it is so frustrating because there is nothing not to like about this transition. You know, it’s such an opportunity and we spend so little time talking about how great it will be and so much time, you know, being fed fears about the things we might have to do without, in fact there are a few things we’ll have to do without but there’s loads of things that we won’t have to do anymore.
Amy: I think I have to ask, with COP28 coming up and with the UK’s recent green light for new oil and gas fields and the misinformation that we’ve been fed by the government, complete lies, pulled out the air about a meat tax and seven bins for recycling, how do you think the UK can approach COP and have a global standpoint for negotiations?
Mike: I have exceptionally low expectations for, for COP28. You have seen what the COPs have done so far. This one, this next one coming up, it is going to be in Qatar. It is going to have a stronger fossil fuel lobby than the last one which had the strongest fossil fuel lobby than any of the ones before.
What’s the UK’s position in all this? If we had global leadership, we don’t have it anymore so, with the coal mine and so on. I mean, it’s just so easy to see through that stuff. So, you know, honestly, I don’t know. What do I think about the COPs? I think they’re worth having. I think we need them.
What would it take for the stuff coming out of the COPs to be what we need? I mean, at the last cop there still wasn’t a really clear statement about the need to leave the fossil fuel in the ground.
That is such a simple, clear and absolutely that needs to happen. So one way of looking at things at the moment is that the fossil fuel industry has got such influence and they’ve played their cards so cleverly and cynically well that you could say the policy makers at the moment are allowed to say and do anything they like as long as it is not capable of stopping the race, which fossil fuel is, is taken out of the ground and so on. So we need to change that.
Amy: What would that take?
Mike: That might take every government turning up to the COPs knowing that their constituents back home were absolutely screaming for them to come away with a proper outcome and that if they were not seen to be pushing like crazy to achieve that, then they were not going to be getting elected next time. It would be immensely helpful to have the public and the business community both absolutely leaning so hard on the politicians to, to push for it like crazy. Unfortunately, many oil companies are paying lobbyists to spread misinformation.
Amy: Yeah, I witnessed that first hand. I never thought I would see myself on the same side as Piers Morgan in an argument, but I did find myself on Good Morning Britain a few years ago. They put me on to debate with a girl called Naomi Seibt and I did some research before and found she was being paid by fossil fuel companies to come and spread this misinformation and, you know, she just applied all her lies and then I applied all my facts. Luckily, Piers is quite good at winning an argument. So, we brought her down, but the media has now changed. So back then they had to have someone who was anti climate change because it was not a fact. But now, they are allowed to say climate change is a fact, a bare minimum. So, it feels like things have changed with the media and especially with all the severe weather events that have been happening around the world for the first time. I thought every article does link that back to climate change. So, do you feel we have made progress there?
Mike: A bit. It was desperate when we had the time when the BBC had to have this kind of fake balance where there are always two sides to an argument presented as equal over climate. We have moved on a bit beyond that. But we have still an extraordinarily long way to go with the media. Not least with the BBC. Is the BBC fit for the license fee on, on climate? I don’t really think so because, you know, I presented and from the sea of hands that went up in this room, this room agrees. There is a big situation going on and it should be dominating everything. It should be in just about every news item about how does this relate to climate change? And it’s not at all, it’s a peripheral thing and the underlying tone that you get even from the Today Program, the PM program, you carry on as normal.
What I thought was absolutely chilling when the latest IPCC report came out with its final warning statement a few months ago. saying we must act now, otherwise we are done for. It was the headline first thing in the morning. But by mid-afternoon, I think it had completely dropped off the front page of BBC. And then that was it, it was gone. This kind of final warning just came and went and then we’re back to whatever. There may be an item on the Today Program about something to do with climate change then the next item might be about profits from airport companies and with no reference to climate whatsoever. It is just so mixed up and disjointed and not, not fit for purpose. Channel 4 news does a better job.
So a long, long way to go for the media and there’s still, of course, tons of misinformation, not missing the Murdoch Empire and other media outlets which are owned by people whose interest is to maximize their profits not to give you the best view of reality you can get. So we need to be very, very discerning about what media you read.
Mike: But specifically, I know with green biology, like over fishing and fishing plant-based science, what do we think about plant-based diet? Are they important? And what do you think about over fishing and fish?
Amy: There have been some important papers that have come out. It’s quite good news this year that the UK has seen the lowest meat consumption at any point since 1999 but yes, as individuals, we need to reduce the amount of meat.
That does not mean we all have to go vegan or vegetarian. Obviously, we can if we want to but we all can substitute meat for lentils or plant basements or beans or whatever it is for a couple of meals a week and that will make an enormous difference. The Oxford study that was published this year said that by switching to a vegan diet, you will reduce your diet footprint by 75%. And that is not to mention then that agriculture around the world is the leading cause of deforestation and of ocean dead zones. Fish just turn up on beaches dead because of all the nutrients that have been washed into the oceans from agriculture.
Eating more plant-based foods is one of the best ways you can make a positive impact as an individual and see that impact straight away. You know, we are talking big numbers in terms of carbon, in terms of deforestation, in terms of biodiversity.
Overfishing is an issue that I just think does not get talked about enough. We know that over 80 % of fish species are being overfished and we are going to see catastrophic ocean consequences. We are losing food chains already. And it was pretty depressing doing 3 years of marine biology, I must say. I thought as a child, you know, I just love the oceans and they were fascinating, but the reality of it is they are not really going to be there as we know it, for my kids or even in my lifetime.
I think if we are privileged enough that we can get our protein from other sources, we should not be eating fish. Farmed fish are even worse because it takes six times as many wild fish to feed the farmed fish. Also trawling destroys ocean seabeds and we now know that seabeds store vast amounts of carbon. So that is disastrous for climate change, let alone biodiversity loss. Unfortunately, at the moment, there’s so much illegal fishing and it is so hard to protect the high seas, let alone legislate them.
Amy: what can we do to have an impact after we leave the room?
Mike: I think Extinction Rebellion has been effective, as well as Greta Thunberg. They have enabled the UK to feel brave enough to crank its carbon targets up to net zero which was a particularly good step in the right direction, you know, so campaigning can be some of the most effective stuff.
I know people who have gone to prison for Just Stop Oil and I know that is very, very contentious but they are the nicest people you can ever hope to meet. I think what I respect the most about the people I have talked to is that they are prepared to do that. They are not troublemakers by nature at all, but they are prepared to do that even though they know, it is the right thing. Even to be unpopular, even with their friends and family half the time and even though they do not know for sure whether they are doing the right thing, they’re just saying if not this way, how, if not now when and if not me who and they just take a chance that they think is the right thing.
Equally, there are things like there is the Climate Majority Project which is trying to take a stance that is not so disruptive, but just as clear about the science. There’s MP Watch just as an example is a pledging organization that is just trying to set up the conditions under which in every constituency by the next election, every voter will stand to understand the honesty track record and credentials of every candidate just with a view to, you know, because you can’t trust someone on anything.
You know, if you find one thing, you cannot trust someone on, you cannot trust them on climate and anyone could get involved in that. So, it is different for all of us and for some of us, it might be just what we do in our work or the way we influence our workplace or whatever.
Just ask yourself where could my points of influence be given who I am?
Amy: Yeah, I think, you know, change looks different for every one of us. And one of the most important things you can do as an active citizen is have a conversation about climate change and put the Power of Ten into action. But also, you do want to step out of your comfort zone. I took my 84-year-old granddad to a climate march this year and I do not think he ever thought he would be going to a march in his life. But he quite enjoyed it, and he sang along some of the chants, and he waved his branch around. And it looked like he was having a good time, and he added another person and another voice from a different background to the climate movement.
And we have seen the effectiveness of the client movement. I think, throughout history, every big mass change has come from people, the, the protesters, the marchers, the civil disobedience, but then that is also followed by the people who broker the change and who create the better world that we are fighting for. So, you know, whether you are an architect, whether you are a gardener or a painter, whether you are a singer, there is something that you can do in that passion and that talent of yours to create this better world because we need everyone at the table.
Mike: Do you have hope for your children?
Amy: If I am going to be very frank, I think a lot of my friends and my generation do not want to have children because we do not want anyone to be born into a world that is being destroyed. Our generation is very much at the tipping point. Our remaining carbon budget is now only six years away to 1.5 degrees, so everything is to play for in the next 10 years.
But hope is a verb. Hope is a doing word, and we can all put hope into action through our choices, through our influence. And so, all I can do is create hope for myself and empower other people to create hope. And if all of us are creating hope, then yes, I do think that we can turn this around and it is never too late because every fraction of a degree does matter. And so, our collective actions in this room will matter.
